Put away the suit and tie and go and meet the team, all of them. Listen to what they have to say.

R@RPE Fit tester Thanks your clarity and explanations are fantastic.

On the post above you say all PAPR need fit testing, what about hood ones that are positive pressure?

It was my understanding these do not - what is your understanding around these?

A question here. How can a tight fitting respirator based on PAPR become a negative pressure respirator and have an adequate face seal for a person with a beard? — KeithH

It will not have an adequate seal.. Tight fitting respirators require a seal to work. So no beards. Refer to the CDC document below, that stipulates tight fitting PAPR respirators require fit testing. If you have a beard on a tight fitting powered air purifying respirator. (PAPR) you are not expected to pass a fit test.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2018-176/pdfs/2018-176.pdf

A PAPR has air provided to the wearer via a mechanically filtered pump or an external air supply, so how when these items are switched off, can the wearer inhale air either when fit-testing or when ensuring an airtight face seal. — KeithH

The wearer draws air through the filter on the PAPR system. It becomes just like negative air respirators.

If the facepiece is used in the PAPR mode, it can be converted into the negative pressure mode by simply not turning on the motor blower assembly. This is a quote from the below 3 M document.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/9461O/fit-testing-tight-fitting-ppr-161-technical-bulletin.pdf

My apologies my question was not clear enough.

The question is has anyone any views on testing the Clean Space masks, if so do they do it in the powered on mode or power off mode?

Background

Workers must pass a respirator fit test before they first start wearing a tight fitting respirator. Fit testing measures the effectiveness of the seal between the respirator and the wearers face. It is required for all tight fitting respirators, including:-

• lf face disposable
• half face reusable
• full face reusable
• tight

fitting powered air purifying respirators (PAPR)

Hood Type PAPR
It is not required for hood type air purifying respirators (PAPR). These devices work by over supply of air so the wearer is in positive pressure.

Tight fitting PAPR Operation
The tight fitting (PAPR) work opening the demand valve to supply air to the wearer when the positive pressure inside the facepeice decreases to a present minimum.

Testing of Tight Fitting PAPR
The requirement for testing tight fitting PAPR is to in the negative pressure mode. (fit tested as negative pressure air respirators) This means the powered unit is turned off. A tight fitting mask is not suitable for people with beards.

Clean Space how it works
With the Clean space tight fitting PAPR masks they work by oversupply of air. They maintain as it is an oversupply of air the fit testing can be done in the powered on mode.

Beards and Clean Space Masks
Clean Space advocate as their tight fitting masks work on a positive pressure mode so can be worn with people with beards.

What masks can bearded people wear?
PAPR with a hood.

What tasks do you want done? Asbestos survey, analysis of bulk asbestos samples, Asbestos air sampling, asbestos advice.

Without a doubt I agree 100%. See the change at working at heights. Everyone puts up scaffolding now. This is because if they don't someone is going to dobb them in. So the culture is everyone puts out edge protection. With asbestos, crystalline silica, noise and wood dust.....a far different story. Oh they know there is a problem.

I find a lot of the older technicians already think they know and think it is all over the top until they get sick but then it is too late.

I have done over 300 presentations. Doing a presentation is as much entertaining them as well as informing them. Every time I do one I set myself a challenge to keep 100% engagement. So send them along to one of mine, that will be a nice challenge for this old dog.

Part 17 of the asbestos regulation says if your worker may be involved in asbestos work must be trained.

reasonably believes may be involved in asbestos removal work or in the carrying
out of asbestos-related work are trained in the identification and safe handling
of, and suitable control measures for, asbestos and ACM

Often I have the comment after the presentations - "you have scared me through and through". Yep that was my goal. They still use asbestos in India. They make car parts in India. Do we have any checks at the boarder to make sure it is not coming in the country?

.

The code of practice says that you are suppose to have a management plan and renovation survey when doing renovations. The management plan needs to be kept on site. In my experience it is rare for a builder or trades to do this. Even if they know it is a requirement. Often they say my competitors don't why should I add on extra costs.

That all depends on the status of your safety management system. If you are on this forum there is a good chance you are doing something rather than nothing.

If you have good systems in place, you can just chill out. Have a cold shower to give you lots of dopamine.

If it is a good auditor the end result will be they give you ideas to improve your safety systems which means your business will be safer and stronger.

Can we really blame them though, given those that propose to do the "right thing" they will be priced out of the market by those that are offering the quick-fix (or actually the cheaper fix) - since both are technically legal - especially in the residential buildings and renovations. — MattD2

Absolutely agree. We cannot expect the trades in building to suddenly see the light and start doing the right thing. They need help. I twisted the arm of all the trades working on my house to attend and pay for an asbestos awareness course I run. They all said it was an epiphany for them. Both where it can be found and the health effects.

One person on the course was a plumber that said when he drills into cement board he turns the other way and holds his breath. He was shown how to use shaving foam and a coffee cup to contain the hazard. So now he will follow that. Education can help, but will not solve the problem.

We often find that trades people are of the perception if they are doing renovations all they have to do is to take samples of things they think contain asbestos. Asbestos surveys, asbestos management plans...yeah right. They think that if they incur the cost of doing this it puts them at a disadvantage with their competitors that don't do it.

Whenever we do workplace risk assessments we consider the ototoxic properties of the substances in the work place. It is part and parcel of assessing the risks to health and should be done on all risk assessments.

Volatile organic compounds, heavy metals (as found in welding fumes) are commonly encountered in our risk assessments. Lead and mercury have some severe health consequences and need to be managed. The ototoxic activity is one of the consequences.

Carbon monoxide is also considered to have ototoxic effects and this is more widely found in the workplace.

When doing a noise assessment if ototoxins are present then consideration to reducing the noise standard needs to be made.

Benjamin Basevi "Positive pressure breathing apparatus does not have filters"

If you are referring to self contained breathing apparatus. You may be right I don't know. If you are referring to what is commonly know positive pressure masks, such as shown on this website.

https://www.3mnz.co.nz/3M/en_NZ/p/c/ppe/respiratory-protection/powered-supplied-air/

They do have filters. They filter the ambient air and supply it to the wearer. The filters and cartridges just like all others have a limited life time.

The risk to health comes from after the fire is put out. In the "dampening down" stage the toxins will be at high concentrations. The perception is that the risk is low. That is not so.

If there are guidelines, I have never heard of them. I have on many occasions seen contractors go in there unprotected where the risk still exists.

Positive pressure is only good if the filters that clean the air take out the toxins. How do you know that happens? Do the filters remove formaldehyde? What is the end of life of these filters?

There is a culture of saying - yep it is alright, there is no problem. There is no risk. This needs to change.

Below is an example of a recently damaged house and the fire service invites Joe Public in for a visit.

The Fire
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127496020/horror-in-huntly--open-home-on-january-16-at-5-gavin-place

The invite to go and look
https://www.facebook.com/HuntlyFire/posts/kia-ora-huntlyin-the-early-hours-of-saturday-morning-we-were-called-to-a-house-f/679577586744135/

Fire Fighters and Cancer
https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/05/23/calls-for-law-to-acknowledge-high-rates-of-cancer-among-firefighters-dying-at-record-numbers/

The toxins (many of them carcinogens) from fire damaged houses last for years after the fire. Current industry practices does not manage the risk. The fire service has high levels of cancer. Contractors such as builders, sparkies, plumbers are not aware of the risks.

I am (unsuccessfully) trying to get worksafe to lift their game and get better education and management of these high risk locations. So if Phil Parkes makes this happen I will rest easy at night.

Respirators would be good for the wearer, but if they wearer has covid then they are going to be sharing the love to everyone else. The respirators do not have a filtered outlet.

1K is at least half what they normally cost, well done. Who was the supplier. We could direct other people that way. How do you know when the filters are due to be changed?

Thanks Don this is a robust solution but the cost will put a lot off. Shaving is not an issue with positive pressure masks.

The challenge now is that a lot of business's struggle to get employees. Many a time we have been told, "look mate if I require them to shave I would have no staff". Sure we can get them to engage and explain the why, but that does not always work. After all how many people smoke yet they know it affects their health. What do others do in the situations where there are lots of folk with various stages of growth and the employer will not require shaving.

How many schools, joinery shops, builders making things are out there with a wood working operation. They are running the business close to the wire. Ideally they will manage the risk through ventilation - extraction and dilution.

Now the real world, they cannot afford to do it. They are going to be highly resistant to do anything. It adds a bit overhead onto their business and Billy down the road does not have to and can do the work cheaper. So they will use masks, clean shaven or not.

KeithH said
Engagement and participation are options. Suggestions rather than impositions. Listen to what is not said.

This seems a simple solution that if done right seems like an option worth exploring. Yet how many people still drive around with their seat belt undone, or talking on the cell phone.

Are they better to wear a mask with a beard, not fit tested than no mask? What happens in other countries where the regulator is more severe?